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Should the taxpayer fund museums?

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Should museums be funded by the taxpayer?

57% 57% [ 8 ]
43% 43% [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 14

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1 Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:37 pm

grumpy old man

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It has been suggested museums should not be funded by the taxpayer. Do you agree?

This seems like a black and white issue. Should we let the private sector fund the construction and operational costs of every museum?

Or are there certain museums where the taxpayer should reasonably be expected to pay?

How do we determine what is an acceptable taxpayer funded museum?


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It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

2 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:46 pm

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It depends on what the museum is, and if it would benefit the average Canadian.

3 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:50 pm

grumpy old man

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Do go on.

What museum is of benefit to the average Canadian?


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

4 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:55 pm

grumpy old man

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How do we calculate what is beneficial to the average Canadian?


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

5 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:58 pm

Triniman

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I agree with the Free Press when they said that this particular project is an education centre more so than a museum. Much of the information will be displayed digitally. All taxpayers are paying for it, and yet the vast majority will never set foot in it, just like most haven't been to other national museums.

Since this one is more about conveying information rather than seeing physical objects (from what I've heard), all the text and video can be shared for a truly world-wide audience through a website.

If your goal is to display physical artifacts, then you need a building to do it. If you want to create a dinosaur museum, then you need a building to house bones. An airplane museum to house airplanes.

"Should we let the private sector fund the construction and operational costs of every museum?"

If it's going to be a private museum, then yes.

For a public museum, it's wrong to allow the private sector to put in some seed money to create something that is of questionable need, and expect the taxpayer to pay for a significant part of its creation and its annual upkeep, when governments are in record debt and will be instituting strong budgetary cuts. Since it takes years of planning to create a museum, put it on the ballot for an upcoming election.

If the Selinger government wanted to go further into debt to create a museum devoted strictly to the labour movement, partially funded by unions and their supporters, without any public vote, what would you say?

"It has been suggested museums should not be funded by the taxpayer. Do you agree?"

Put it on the ballot. The public may as well have a say in the creation of new, nice-to-have infrastructure. Government should fund necessary infrastructure and let the public vote on unnecessary infrastructure.

I am suspect of museums that are announced without the public having any say in how their taxes are being spent. And if the public votes yes, great, it should be supported. If the public votes no, then that's the end of it.

"How do we determine what is an acceptable taxpayer funded museum?"

Do what the Asper family very carefully refused to do: Hold press conferences, create websites and allow reporters and the public to ASK questions. Publish the results online. Let people see what the reasons are for and against. Then, a public vote seems to me to be the only fair way to proceed. It goes without saying that the media should also help convey information to help educate people.

Regardless how one feels about un-scientific online polls, they no doubt tap into some expression of public sentiment. From what I've seen from those who frequent so-called left-leaning, right-leaning and neutral websites, there is considerable mistrust of the rights museum organizers, partly due to the lack of perceived due dilligence, lack of perceived transparency, concerns with project management, outright racism, but also resentment due to the fact that this museum (seen by many as being self-serving culturally and a personal legacy tribute) was announced without a public vote.


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“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through
our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that
democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'



― Isaac Asimov

6 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:01 pm

Outsider

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grumpy old man wrote:It has been suggested museums should not be funded by the taxpayer. Do you agree?

This seems like a black and white issue. Should we let the private sector fund the construction and operational costs of every museum?

Or are there certain museums where the taxpayer should reasonably be expected to pay?

How do we determine what is an acceptable taxpayer funded museum?

I know you are going to shoot me down. But here goes.....
I do not believe the taxpayer should be funding NEW museums of any kind.
My main concern is the amount of money Manitoba gets from the other provinces in the transfer of payments for BASIC services. Sooner or later the Federal government whether it is Conservative or Liberal will have to balance the books. The Feds are going to either cut down the transfer of payment or increase taxes or both.
I am sorry but I do not want education, existing infrastructure or health care funding to suffer because of a museum.
Our population (including myself) is getting older. And we worked too damn hard and paid too many taxes to deserve less health care than we already pre-paid for.
Just my humble opinion....... Now fire away.

7 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:01 pm

grumpy old man

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Answer me just one question.

What initiative has been put to a public vote?


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

8 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:04 pm

grumpy old man

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Outsider wrote:I know you are going to shoot me down. But here goes.....
I do not believe the taxpayer should be funding NEW museums of any kind.

No shooting here...

Your opinion is black and white. NO public funding for any museum.

I have zero problem with your opinion.


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

9 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:05 pm

rosencrentz

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We dont need no Museums in Canada! They are all a waste of money because they do not make money.
Today all the information is available on the internet, and we don't need no "biggest in the world human rights museum for Winnipeg!
$350 million for a building- what a waste of money! $22 million dollars to run it! What a waste of money!
The only thing that I see as a positive is that the great Izzy Asper convinced 3 levels of governments plus got personal donations to get this built here in Winnipeg.
Federal Government
Provincial Government
City Government
Personal donations


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10 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:11 pm

Outsider

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grumpy old man wrote:
Outsider wrote:I know you are going to shoot me down. But here goes.....
I do not believe the taxpayer should be funding NEW museums of any kind.

No shooting here...

Your opinion is black and white. NO public funding for any museum.

I have zero problem with your opinion.

Sorry I said NEW museums.

11 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:27 pm

rosencrentz

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Taxpayers fund all museums! Whether the government approves them or people or companies donate to the museum, all the money is from taxpayers!



Last edited by rosencrentz on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total

http://www.elansofas.com

12 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:46 pm

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rosencrentz wrote:Taxpayers fund all museums! Whether the government approves them or people donate to the museum, all the money is from taxpayers!

Not all Museums....

13 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:15 pm

Deank

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definately not all museums and definately not at the rate that this museum will be funded.

Should the taxpayer fund museums?

Yes. Some.

How do you decide?

1) Have a plan in place detailing the content and cost of the museum, very specifically. Show what is in place to either cancel the museum, adjust its cost or get more money should budget be exceceded any time.

2) Show the potential benefit from the museum. (try to use facts, not hopes and dreams and butterfly kisses)

3) Show the expected number of visitors, AND if asking for alot of money, show where those visitors are coming from and show the NET NEW dollars to the local economy.

4) detail how many volunteers will be at the museum, have a set of volunteers already in place.

Thats a good set of rules, I am sure more can be added.


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14 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:38 pm

grumpy old man

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Deank wrote:1) Have a plan in place detailing the content and cost of the museum, very specifically. Show what is in place to either cancel the museum, adjust its cost or get more money should budget be exceceded any time.
Can't argue with this. Black and white.

Deank wrote:2) Show the potential benefit from the museum. (try to use facts, not hopes and dreams and butterfly kisses)
I could agree with this if we knew how to measure how a museum benefits. Is there a museum industry benchmark that could be used to measure success?

Deank wrote:3) Show the expected number of visitors, AND if asking for alot of money, show where those visitors are coming from and show the NET NEW dollars to the local economy.
I could agree with this also if there were benchmark standards. Are National museums expected to be profitable? Ultimately what is a successful museum?

Deank wrote:4) detail how many volunteers will be at the museum, have a set of volunteers already in place.
I can accept this but why is this so important?


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

15 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:01 am

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I wish thre was a "depends on the circumstances" option in the poll.

16 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:11 am

death128

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The HR museum would bring much needed Federal funds into MB. >.<

17 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:12 am

Triniman

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rosencrentz wrote:We dont need no Museums in Canada! They are all a waste of money because they do not make money.
Today all the information is available on the internet, and we don't need no "biggest in the world human rights museum for Winnipeg!
$350 million for a building- what a waste of money! $22 million dollars to run it! What a waste of money!
The only thing that I see as a positive is that the great Izzy Asper convinced 3 levels of governments plus got personal donations to get this built here in Winnipeg.
Federal Government
Provincial Government
City Government
Personal donations

The Feds have said NO to much needed additional funding above and beyond the original agreement. Guess why? You'd think with all the stimulus money they were throwing around, this project would get millions more. But no. They are listening to the people who believe the overall stewardship to date has been terrible. Not accounting for inflation? Get real.


_________________
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through
our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that
democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'



― Isaac Asimov

18 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:14 am

Outsider

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death128 wrote:The HR museum would bring much needed Federal funds into MB. >.<

Doesn't the Federal government get most of its money from the taxpayers?
If Manitoba is receiving more money from the Feds than they are paying then that means taxpayers in other provinces are paying dollars to support Manitoba. I think that makes Manitoba a "have-not" province. I wonder if the tax-payers in the "have" provinces have any thoughts about what Manitoba is spending their hard-earned tax dollars on. Question

19 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:21 am

grumpy old man

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Triniman wrote:Guess why? You'd think with all the stimulus money they were throwing around, this project would get millions more. But no. They are listening to the people who believe the overall stewardship to date has been terrible. Not accounting for inflation? Get real.

You have facts to substantiate this claim? You just can't keep making up stories to support your position.

The federal government may well have decided they've no more money for this museum. And they may well believe the museum has been and is very poorly run.

But this is a NATIONAL museum. If they believe the museum management is ineffective they should replace the board and appoint a new manager.


_________________
Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

20 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:07 am

rosencrentz

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All museums should have their funding from all levels of governments eliminated! The Museums, the zoo's, etcetra , should have to operate on the money they collect from visitors!
We dont need no art museum downrown! have you seen how piriful the displays are?
If Cathy Richardson wasn't donating millions of dollars it wouldn't be open!
What a waste of money to hang some irrelevant pictures for people to see, that can be seen in a book from the library, or on Dr. Google!
Come to think of it we should close all "free" libraries , that are paid for by our local taxes! What a waste of money books for cheap people to loan!


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21 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:10 am

rosencrentz

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Regarding budgets from governments, typically the feds, why would anyone think that they would be dead on accurate??
I love the $200 million dollar forecast for the gun registry, and whaen the provinces wouldn't co-operate , the feds did it on their own and at a reasonable cost of 2 billion and it doesn't work!


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They cut my back open ! Help!
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22 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:11 am

Deank

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grumpy old man wrote:
Deank wrote:1) Have a plan in place detailing the content and cost of the museum, very specifically. Show what is in place to either cancel the museum, adjust its cost or get more money should budget be exceceded any time.
Can't argue with this. Black and white.

Deank wrote:2) Show the potential benefit from the museum. (try to use facts, not hopes and dreams and butterfly kisses)
I could agree with this if we knew how to measure how a museum benefits. Is there a museum industry benchmark that could be used to measure success?

Deank wrote:3) Show the expected number of visitors, AND if asking for alot of money, show where those visitors are coming from and show the NET NEW dollars to the local economy.
I could agree with this also if there were benchmark standards. Are National museums expected to be profitable? Ultimately what is a successful museum?

Deank wrote:4) detail how many volunteers will be at the museum, have a set of volunteers already in place.
I can accept this but why is this so important?

4= importance as it shows that there are indeed people who support the initiative and are willing to donate time to it.

3 = Of course not expected to be profitable. But it gets down to.. are we going to be spending $50 per visitors in tax money or $2 per visitor? And are we just going to be taking visitors from another already existing project?

2. Not measure the benefit. SHOW the benefit. A museums backers should have a general idea on why they want a museum and what they expect it to accomplish. ex. Air museum. Showcase and explain the history of AIr travel as it pertains to Manitoba and or Canada. This allows visitors to get a glimpse of our past, etc. etc. It is then up to the politicians of the day, to take gauge if their constituents would see that as a benefit worthy of their money. Depending on the level of support the politicians should ACTIVELY engage their riding membership.


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23 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:13 am

Deank

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rosencrentz wrote:Regarding budgets from governments, typically the feds, why would anyone think that they would be dead on accurate??
I love the $200 million dollar forecast for the gun registry, and whaen the provinces wouldn't co-operate , the feds did it on their own and at a reasonable cost of 2 billion and it doesn't work!

Ahem.. 2 MILLION not 200 MILLION

oh an yes realistically it should have cost less then that for all the hardware and software and then maybe 1 million per year to manage.


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24 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:20 am

rosencrentz

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DeanK- I was just checking to see if anyone on this forum was reading! lol


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25 Re: Should the taxpayer fund museums? on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:24 am

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rosencrentz wrote:All museums should have their funding from all levels of governments eliminated! The Museums, the zoo's, etcetra , should have to operate on the money they collect from visitors!
We dont need no art museum downrown! have you seen how piriful the displays are?
If Cathy Richardson wasn't donating millions of dollars it wouldn't be open!
What a waste of money to hang some irrelevant pictures for people to see, that can be seen in a book from the library, or on Dr. Google!
Come to think of it we should close all "free" libraries , that are paid for by our local taxes! What a waste of money books for cheap people to loan!

We are in a recession.
Why wouldn't we spend our precious tax dollars repairing our existing libraries and museums instead of building new ones at the expense of leaving the old ones in dis-repair?

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