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POLL: Continue or scrap the Crestwin Bomber stadium project?

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Continue or scrap the Crestwin Bomber stadium project?

15% 15% [ 4 ]
65% 65% [ 17 ]
19% 19% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 26

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grumpy old man


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There will be no other private investors stepping forward to invest in a stadium.

EdWin

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I don't think it's so late to say that no one else can't step up to the plate and take over this project, if it indeed does fail in the end.

Jondo

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Then it may die right where it is - a hole in the ground.

grumpy old man

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EdWin wrote:I don't think it's so late to say that no one else can't step up to the plate and take over this project, if it indeed does fail in the end.
You're right, Winnipeg has been fighting off the hordes looking to invest in a Winnipeg stadium.

The only way Winnipeg (and Regina BTW) will get new stadiums is if the taxpayer funds them. Same with Hamilton. Ottawa. And who is paying for that half billion dollar roof in Vancouver?

Hey, even that beautiful Edmonton football facility was paid for by you and I and the rest of Canada. And how much will the taxpayer be on the hook for the new Edmonton hockey facility?


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Jondo

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There are dozens of rotten Community Centres that should have funding priority over this new stadium.

EdWin

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grumpy old man wrote:
EdWin wrote:I don't think it's so late to say that no one else can't step up to the plate and take over this project, if it indeed does fail in the end.
You're right, Winnipeg has been fighting off the hordes looking to invest in a Winnipeg stadium.

The only way Winnipeg (and Regina BTW) will get new stadiums is if the taxpayer funds them. Same with Hamilton. Ottawa. And who is paying for that half billion dollar roof in Vancouver?

Hey, even that beautiful Edmonton football facility was paid for by you and I and the rest of Canada. And how much will the taxpayer be on the hook for the new Edmonton hockey facility?
I'm not sure, but you may have taken my comment as some sort of sarcasm, which is was not. What I am saying is that if the MTS Centre had the ability to be built with a vast majority of private funds, then so can the new stadium. It's not an impossible task. The MTS Centre is proof that this can be accomplish, so I don't see any reason why someone else cannot step forward wanting to invest in the construction of a new stadium facility. I personally am not a fan of using taxpayers money to fund the majority of "professional" sports facilities, which is why I am against the stadium and arena proposals in Edmonton, Regina and QC due to their funding agreements as they currently stand.

grumpy old man

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Heh, forgot abot Quebec City arena.

I did not take it as sarcasm. Not at all. My point is that there are few if any private investors willing to spring for a massively expensive stadia. Not here. Not Canada. The US. Nor Europe.

We cannot compare a hockey arena that has the potential for 365+ engagements a year with a Winnipeg outdoor football stadium. Add in the conflict government has agreed to when the MTS Centre was negotiated; no competing events...


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What I am saying is that if the MTS Centre had the ability to be built with a vast majority of private funds, then so can the new stadium. It's not an impossible task.



Edwin, you are mistaken, The MTS Center was paid for and continues to be paid for by Taxpayers.The 50 million dollar "private " loan is secured by a gauranteed VLT disbursement from the government. Those same machines were at one time collecting money elsewhere and went directly into government coffers rather than a Credit Unit loan repayment scheme. ( See asper and polo park taxes ).

There was a fine piece of investigative reporting on this awhile back. Will try and dig it up. From what was reported, less than 10 Million was "private money.

rosencrentz

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What were the costs of te 60 year old stadium and how was it paid for?


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grumpy old man wrote:There will be no other private investors stepping forward to invest in a stadium.


I'd like to see 45000 "private " investors put their money where their mouth is. Fractional Ownership it works, and it will get you a dome. At the very least, there is talk of a "share" feature beign offered, which is absolutely useless ala GreenBay for investors. Best to actually own a portion of the team and complex outright.

EdWin

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Livio Ciaralli wrote:What I am saying is that if the MTS Centre had the ability to be built with a vast majority of private funds, then so can the new stadium. It's not an impossible task.



Edwin, you are mistaken, The MTS Center was paid for and continues to be paid for by Taxpayers.The 50 million dollar "private " loan is secured by a gauranteed VLT disbursement from the government. Those same machines were at one time collecting money elsewhere and went directly into government coffers rather than a Credit Unit loan repayment scheme. ( See asper and polo park taxes ).

There was a fine piece of investigative reporting on this awhile back. Will try and dig it up. From what was reported, less than 10 Million was "private money.

Hmmm, I'm going to requre proof of this before I believe it. My understanding is that only 20 million of direct taxpayers money was used, and the rest came from TNSE themselves. But regardless, since when is VLT revenue "tax money"? To my knowledge, it's not. It's money that is voluntarily given up by citizens who choose to gamble away money at their own discresion; no one is forcing them to give this money up. Unless you are referring to a certain percentage taken from VLT money as "tax"?
TNSE is currently creating an entertainment district around the MTS Centre that will collect revenues from various businessess such as hotels and sportsbars. Again, this is money that is voluntarily spent by citizens because they choose to spend it and support TNSE in their venture. I think this is a very intelligent way to approach raising revenue.

rosencrentz

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$2.5 Million in 1953 is the answer.


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rosencrentz

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Where is Vancouver's $565,000,000 for a retractable roof coming from? Are they putting a small tax on marihuana sales to the U.S.?


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Jondo

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Livio Ciaralli wrote:
grumpy old man wrote:There will be no other private investors stepping forward to invest in a stadium.


I'd like to see 45000 "private " investors put their money where their mouth is. Fractional Ownership it works, and it will get you a dome. At the very least, there is talk of a "share" feature beign offered, which is absolutely useless ala GreenBay for investors. Best to actually own a portion of the team and complex outright.


Liv I read your plan two years ago. You should table it again. Maybe a mix of that with Leo L. partnership would gain some attention. I was going to be the first to become a member of that share-scheme of yours and I think the public would embrace the concept at this point. You should forward it to Brodbeck - or send it to me and I'll do it.

Jondo

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It would bring $30m/yr toward debt financing.

EdWin

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Livio Ciaralli wrote:

Edwin, you are mistaken, The MTS Center was paid for and continues to be paid for by Taxpayers.The 50 million dollar "private " loan is secured by a gauranteed VLT disbursement from the government. Those same machines were at one time collecting money elsewhere and went directly into government coffers rather than a Credit Unit loan repayment scheme. ( See asper and polo park taxes ).

There was a fine piece of investigative reporting on this awhile back. Will try and dig it up. From what was reported, less than 10 Million was "private money.
So I wanted to verify your claim with others who might be in the know more than myself, and here are some responses I recieved from Jetsowners.com, including one guy who apparently work at the MTS Centre:
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VLT revenue doesn't go "directly into government coffers". A percentage is paid to the venue that houses them.

IIRC, the MTSC was given a deal whereby they'd get to keep a larger percentage of the revenue, not all of it. And certainly the success of the MTSC generates increased usage and thus revenue from the VLTS and thus contribute to more of that money going into the government coffers.

The government does not take high revenue machines away from venues to give to others. They don't create any new machines so when a new business opens or an existing business requires more machines, they take the lowest revenue machines.

For example, a hotel I work at added a few more machines recently. They have long been among the top revenue-per-machine producers in the province so once they added a new lisence, the Lotteries Corp had no problem giving them a few more.

So in our case they would have taken one machine from each of the four lowest producing venues.

So it's dishonest to say they took VLTs that generated revenue for the government and gave them to MTSC. It just doesn't work that way.

Plus, the NDP government announced years ago that any contributions they made to MTS was paid back and then some through taxation that did not exist before the investment.

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Project Funding

The MTS Centre will cost $133.5 million. The MTS Centre Project group will contribute about 70% of this or $93 million.


The Government of Canada, The Province of Manitoba and the City of Winnipeg will contribute about 30% or $40.5 million. For every two private-sector dollars, there will be less than one dollar of public-sector investment.

As part of the business plan, the MTS Centre Project Group will own and operate the new entertainment centre and the Manitoba Moose.

http://www.mtscentre.ca/overview/

Source http://returnofthejets.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=mtsc&action=display&thread=11143

Livio Ci

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Edwin, put it this way, without the loan from the Credit union ( which members didn't really like ), the deal was dead.

VLT's were a major portion of the deal. Thats what pays the loan.

Whether you want to split hairs as to what and who pays ....if its government money, its my money, the taxpayer.

But i will find the report where all the details were outlined.

Livio Ci

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Jondo, if it goes back to tender, i will table it.

EdWin

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Livio Ci wrote:Edwin, put it this way, without the loan from the Credit union ( which members didn't really like ), the deal was dead.

VLT's were a major portion of the deal. Thats what pays the loan.

Whether you want to split hairs as to what and who pays ....if its government money, its my money, the taxpayer.

But i will find the report where all the details were outlined.
Livio, I will split hares because if it indeed was a loan, it was paid back in full, likely with interest. That means that TNSE gave MORE of their own money back to the government including interest, and therefore the money did indeed come out of their own pockets in the end. Just like my student loans; the government gave me money in the beginning, but I have to pay it back with interest, so therefore I am paying more back to the government than I orgionally borrow, and hence they made a profit off of me, just like they made a profit off of TNSE.
So yes, less than fifty million dollars of money was indeed given towards the MTS Centre from various levels of government, not as loans, but the rest of the 133 million did indeed come from private funds, and that is the truth. And the benefits of the MTS Centre have surely eclipsed any negatives that it has produced, making that investment well worth it as it indeed has enhanced the entertainment options for Winnipeg, wouldn't you agree Livio?

Livio Ci

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No buddy, they NEEDED an EXTRA 50 MILLION dollar loan on top of what the government gave them.

That was the Credit Union loan which is being paid off with VLT money.

I'll try my best to find that report. I had a hard time a few months ago researching the Credit Union issue. Seem slike its all cached, but it was in all the papers since the Credit Union members ( deposit holders ) were close to launching a court injunction against the Credit Union. Perhaps the Provincial government coming in witht he VLT revenue appeased them and secured their capital.


But make no mistake, this money , is all public money. The VLT's will pay the outstanding Credit union loan.

EdWin

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Livio Ci wrote:No buddy, they NEEDED an EXTRA 50 MILLION dollar loan on top of what the government gave them.

That was the Credit Union loan which is being paid off with VLT money.

I'll try my best to find that report. I had a hard time a few months ago researching the Credit Union issue. Seem slike its all cached, but it was in all the papers since the Credit Union members ( deposit holders ) were close to launching a court injunction against the Credit Union. Perhaps the Provincial government coming in witht he VLT revenue appeased them and secured their capital.


But make no mistake, this money , is all public money. The VLT's will pay the outstanding Credit union loan.
Then prove it. I would like to see this alleged evidence you claim.Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.

rosencrentz

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There is no public money!


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grumpy old man

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EdWin he has twice said he will look for the story. I recall what he is alluding to but not all the details. There was a significant feature published on this a couple years ago that surprised me.

That said that arena has been/is a wonderful success and is a fine example of public involvement in such facilities. I wonder, would it have been built at all without that money?

Is Winnipeg better with this facility or without?


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Livio Ci

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Agree , its a good thing, just made a comment about what Edwin said about funding.

As it stands, the taxpayers of Winnipeg have really pulled their weight when it comes to funding sports venues.

Personally i agree with alot of people who believe these venues should be funded by governments. On the flip side, i have a hard time seeing privates runaway with the profits.

For the bomber stadium, politicians have a moral duty to look into Green Bays share structure and they also have to entertain the possibility of fractional ownership. If this is going to be funded with public money, then everything should be on the table. Let the people decide when they have all the facts. I'm sure quite a few would like endzone seats for life at a cost of 750 bucks vs. a share certificate.

rosencrentz

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without


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http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TQWcDJPIU5oJ:powerplace2001.homestead.com/chronicles4.html+Assiniboine+Credit+union+loans+Chipman+money&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a


A little difficult to find but some reading info for you Ed. Still looking for that excellent report to debunk the notion that Private's do the heavy lifting.

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