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Budget 2011 Consultations

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26 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:10 pm

Deank


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umcrouc0 wrote:The tricky part about that is that job security is the #1 priority of unions. Wages and benefits are one thing, but if you start talking about reductions, that's where they will really dig in.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/04/business/04labor.html?_r=3&hp

"Faced with growing budget deficits and restive taxpayers, elected
officials from Maine to Alabama, Ohio to Arizona, are pushing new
legislation to limit the power of labor unions, particularly those
representing government workers, in collective bargaining and politics."

27 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:11 pm

Deank

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" In other words about half of our budget is spent on the docs."

you are reading that wrong if you believe that to be the case.


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28 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:21 pm

AGEsAces

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i think it's becoming more apparent both in the US & Canada, that in MOST cases, unions are NOT good for business.

And they don't belong in government either.

And it's becoming more recognizable thanks to hollywood and sports.
When baseball and hockey went on "strike" and the hollywood writers went on "strike"...in general, most people were just pissed and fed up about it. Viewed those striking as a bunch of overpaid whiners.

And now as other "blue-collar" workers are doing the same...especially when jobs are being lost left & right...unions are being seen as the CAUSE of many business failures. Seeing unqualified people maintaining jobs because they are paying dues, rather than a company (or government) hiring qualified and competent people who will actually get a job done.

http://www.photage.ca

29 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:23 pm

umcrouc0

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Deank wrote:
umcrouc0 wrote:The tricky part about that is that job security is the #1 priority of unions. Wages and benefits are one thing, but if you start talking about reductions, that's where they will really dig in.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/04/business/04labor.html?_r=3&hp

"Faced with growing budget deficits and restive taxpayers, elected
officials from Maine to Alabama, Ohio to Arizona, are pushing new
legislation to limit the power of labor unions, particularly those
representing government workers, in collective bargaining and politics."

Labour legislation is so different between Canada and the US that unions have next to no power in the US compared with Canada. Entirely different systems.

30 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:24 pm

umcrouc0

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AGEsAces wrote:i think it's becoming more apparent both in the US & Canada, that in MOST cases, unions are NOT good for business.

And they don't belong in government either.

And it's becoming more recognizable thanks to hollywood and sports.
When baseball and hockey went on "strike" and the hollywood writers went on "strike"...in general, most people were just pissed and fed up about it. Viewed those striking as a bunch of overpaid whiners.

And now as other "blue-collar" workers are doing the same...especially when jobs are being lost left & right...unions are being seen as the CAUSE of many business failures. Seeing unqualified people maintaining jobs because they are paying dues, rather than a company (or government) hiring qualified and competent people who will actually get a job done.

Of course they're not good for business. They're designed to benefit workers, not the businesses in which they work.

31 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:24 pm

Deank

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That really depends on the state.


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32 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:25 pm

umcrouc0

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Yeah, that's true.

33 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:39 pm

AGEsAces

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It's not that different...and unions have ENORMOUS power in the US...where the unions have become established.

And union laws in the US are so severe...that MOST companies will do whatever they can to avoid getting a union in...because once it's in the door...it's almost impossible to get rid of.

http://www.photage.ca

34 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:47 pm

eViL tRoLl

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Deank wrote:" In other words about half of our budget is spent on the docs."

you are reading that wrong if you believe that to be the case.
You are right, I am not an accountant, but I did some more digging. The 4.2 billion Health Insurance Fund also includes the funds for RHAs and hospitals. "Only" about $880 million were paid through medical billings to about 1300 physicians. So it's "only" about 8% of the total MB budget that goes to non-salaried docs. I posted a link to the individuals and their billings in another thread. How much of the remaining 3.4 billion that goes to RHAs and hospital actually is for front line staff and how much to admin can probably ascertained from each of the RHAs annual reports.

The fact is that government in Manitoba is fairly transparent and what is spent is well documented down to the level of the individual. All you need to do is a bit of homework to put the pieces together, and then have an informed opinion on what parts of government may be most redundant or useless. There is no point in bashing organizations if you don't know the (easily accessible) facts.

35 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:32 pm

grumpy old man

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I'm not sure how one can tell from these (easily accessible) facts which jobs are redundant and which are required. The point is we believe the government bureaucracies to be bloated.

brodbeck has done significant research and reporting on these matters that sure seems to bear that belief out.

That said I have relatives in the city (as an example) and work closely (very closely) with a provincial organization. The "evidence" from those two examples also bears out my beliefs.


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36 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:26 am

Guest

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Yikes??? Is there somebody around here that is saying that our government and our health care systems do not have a very bloated bureaucracy happening? Shocked

37 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:36 am

grumpy old man

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Imagine eh? Seems evil troll thinks I am being preemptively too hard on our government(s).


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It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

38 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:54 am

eViL tRoLl

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Oh I don't doubt that there is administrative beaurcratic bloat and redundant programs. My concern is more with those who propose a grand slash through governement or criticizing all unions. There should be more awareness that it is the doctor's union that stands out among all unions with the biggest perks, and wages of all government pales to what is paid out to physicians. It is easy to say government is bad or unions are bad - but would be much more helpful to do some homework and find the bad apples before wanting to cut down the whole tree.

39 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:02 am

Deank

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just think how much cutting them 25% will save Smile


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40 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:37 am

Guest

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eViL tRoLl wrote:Oh I don't doubt that there is administrative beaurcratic bloat and redundant programs. My concern is more with those who propose a grand slash through governement or criticizing all unions. There should be more awareness that it is the doctor's union that stands out among all unions with the biggest perks, and wages of all government pales to what is paid out to physicians. It is easy to say government is bad or unions are bad - but would be much more helpful to do some homework and find the bad apples before wanting to cut down the whole tree.

Please don't forget that these doctors are paying rent and staff out of those incomes. And aren't surgeons charged for ORs and the like as well?

41 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:28 pm

umcrouc0

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eViL tRoLl wrote:Oh I don't doubt that there is administrative beaurcratic bloat and redundant programs. My concern is more with those who propose a grand slash through governement or criticizing all unions. There should be more awareness that it is the doctor's union that stands out among all unions with the biggest perks, and wages of all government pales to what is paid out to physicians. It is easy to say government is bad or unions are bad - but would be much more helpful to do some homework and find the bad apples before wanting to cut down the whole tree.

Well, like everything you can't just say cut x%. It's like saying you want to cut the weight of your car by 30% to make if faster, then taking then engine out so you can hit your weight reduction target. But I don't know that anyone's suggesting an across the board cut like that.

42 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:39 pm

Deank

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I am


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43 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:56 pm

AGEsAces

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JTF wrote:
eViL tRoLl wrote:Oh I don't doubt that there is administrative beaurcratic bloat and redundant programs. My concern is more with those who propose a grand slash through governement or criticizing all unions. There should be more awareness that it is the doctor's union that stands out among all unions with the biggest perks, and wages of all government pales to what is paid out to physicians. It is easy to say government is bad or unions are bad - but would be much more helpful to do some homework and find the bad apples before wanting to cut down the whole tree.

Please don't forget that these doctors are paying rent and staff out of those incomes. And aren't surgeons charged for ORs and the like as well?

Actually, I've been told that a HUGE percentage of doctor's income is turned back into insurance premiums.

http://www.photage.ca

44 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:05 pm

Deank

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you were told incorrectly


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45 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:16 pm

AGEsAces

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by my doctor?

http://www.photage.ca

46 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:18 pm

Deank

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if he is the one that told you then yup


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47 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:11 am

Guest

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Ahhh...doctors do pay their insurance out of the money they earn.

48 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:02 am

Deank

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and its a pittance not some HUGE percentage of their income.


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49 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:38 am

AGEsAces

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On searching, there were several sites saying the insurance "extremes" were not so extreme...but that they were still significant. Especially since the amount of claims, cost of claims, and number of claims being awarded has been reduced over the past 20 years.

http://www.uwomeds.com/uwomj/v77n2/Alabousi.pdf

Another troubling trend, which does not seem to be affected by the decline in legal actions against physicians, is the rising cost of malpractice insurance in Canada. Over the past decade there has been a steep increase in the cost of malpractice insurance in the country that is beginning to have a significant effect on practicing physicians. It has been estimated that as of 2001, average insurance rates in Ontario had climbed by nearly 45%, while rates in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta had had a more modest increase of 11% by the same year.7 And, since Canada in general, and Ontario in particular, has a worrisome physician shortage, the significant increase in malpractice insurance fees in some provinces may put these jurisdictions at a disadvantage when recruiting and retaining doctors.7 Although most specialties are being affected by the insurance fee hikes, some specialties such as Orthopaedics, Neurosurgery, and Obstetrics have been more significantly influenced

http://www.photage.ca

50 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:45 am

Deank

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90+% of Canadian doctors get their insurance from CMPA

here is the 2011 fee schedule

http://www.cmpa-acpm.ca/cmpapd04/docs/membership/fees/2011cal-e.pdf

a pittance


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51 Re: Budget 2011 Consultations on Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:41 pm

Deank

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LOL

good thing we are having budget consultations that mean something eh?

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Province-reaches-tentative-agreement-with-union-113077659.html

"and a no-layoff provisions that covers the entire four years of the deal."

ooo right... its an election year.

Why the Frak are these contracts set to expire near election years?


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