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Is there such a thing as a good socialist model?

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grumpyrom

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Why exactly is Hydro not next to free for Manitoban's? Similar to how gasoline costs next to nothing in countries like Saudi Arabia? And while we're on that topic, why is gasoline not next to free considering we are one of the world's top net exporters of oil. Perhaps having some industries 100% owned and operated by government would not always be such a bad thing. We should be using our natural resources to improve the lives of all Canadian's, not to produce profits for private corporations.

Getting ready to be shouted down in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ..........

grumpy old man

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Shudder...


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grumpyrom wrote:

Why exactly is Hydro not next to free for Manitoban's? Similar to how gasoline costs next to nothing in countries like Saudi Arabia? And while we're on that topic, why is gasoline not next to free considering we are one of the world's top net exporters of oil. Perhaps having some industries 100% owned and operated by government would not always be such a bad thing. We should be using our natural resources to improve the lives of all Canadian's, not to produce profits for private corporations.

Getting ready to be shouted down in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ..........

grumpy old man

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Where do we draw the line?

Are there trade agreements with other nations that might get in the way of such reduced pricing?

Let's just nationalize all industry and make everything next to free to all Canadians.

Fricken commie bastiges.


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grumpyrom

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Not all industries. Just natural resources. I see no reason why we should allow private corporations to sell OUR resources for a profit and give us back a very small percentage of that profit back in royalties for the privellage of making a buck off OUR resources. That's just plain stupid. Why not cut them out of the picture and keep ALL the profit for ALL Canadians. We should be giving them the pittance we charge then in royalties if anything. The rest of the profits should go straight back into our pockets. Doing what we do is just plain foolish, but it's capitalist so it must be right eh?

wpg_idiot

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Its worked out well for Cuba and Venezuela hasn't it Wink . America would just LOVE that idea...

grumpy old man

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OUR resources? Where do you get off thinking such thoughts? That kind of thinking comes straight out of eastern Europe. Pretty presumptuous me thinks.

Canadian society has done just fine thank you without the communist and socialist leanings of some.

I find it hard to believe that some people think that Canada and Canadian society would be better off if only we did not have capitalists stealing our bread.

Now that is stupid thinking...


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

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grumpy old man

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JTF wrote:Actually, I'd rather see a couple of hundred grand of hydro money go towards helping the poor in this manner than the couple of hundred million that are being pissed away on Bipole lll.

But I'd also like to see much, much cheaper hydro rates for all Manitobans.....like next to free cheap. We can increase the rates we sell it for to make up the difference.

At the same time we would attract hydro-intensive industry to set up here in Manitoba with cheap rates as well.
A preferred route would be sell hydro at industry standard rates; pay off the debt; lower our tax rates putting more money in our jeans.

All the while selling surplus power and growing our revenues building revenue for health and social programs, infrastructure, etc...

Remember what Eastern Europe, Russia and China looked like before evil capitalism took hold? Everyone was equal, except a select few, and no one had anything, including no rights.

I know what I'd prefer.


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Triniman

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Selling hydro at industry standard rates may be a good idea, but how do you sell that idea to the private sector?


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grumpy old man

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How do other jurisdictions do it?

I paid through the teeth for electricity in Toronto. Yet there are a couple viable businesses in that area. How do they do it?

Big business/big consumers will negotiate more favourable rates. The mere fact that Manitoba CAN charge lower rates will not guarantee us anything.

I've heard so many times about using low hydro rates to lure industry to Manitoba yet they aren't flocking here. Low electrical rates will not be the panacea some hope for.

So let's leverage it such that Manitobans benefit the best way we can. I don't think the answer is to charge Manitobans too high a rate. Nor is the answer too low a rate.


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

grumpy old man

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Let's get this thread back on topic.

Cheap hydro rates for those that truly can't afford it is the right thing to do.

I just don't want Hydro making the decision. Nor do I want the PUB making that decision.

Let people apply for subsidies...


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

grumpyrom

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What a crock of baloney GOM. Who do the natural resources of a country belong to if not the citizens of it's country. You use Eastern Europs and other communist dictatorships as your examples of why it won't work. Why not use the Middle East as an example of why it CAN work. Last time I checked they have 1 single resources and have managed to build a decent amount of wealth for their people with it. Why can't Canada do the same with the overwhelming abundance of resources we have. We don't need the private sector giving us back crumbs when we could be keeping the wealth for ourselves.

13 Is there such a thing as a good socialist model? on Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:16 am

grumpy old man

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Canadians own the resources until they sell them. Then it is up to someone else to properly develop them. Who honestly believes a nationalised mining (or gas or lumber...) industry could possibly benefit Canada?

Imagine the wages when the government owns all the companies developing the resources. What do you suppose will happen to them?



Last edited by grumpy old man on Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total


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Deank

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"Why not use the Middle East as an example of why it CAN work."

Like IRAN where they instituted rationing and have tripled the price?


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grumpy old man

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Deank wrote:"Why not use the Middle East as an example of why it CAN work."

Like IRAN where they instituted rationing and have tripled the price?
many of the middle east countries have had to import hundreds and thousands of workers because they could not get their people to work the dirty jobs. These people were (are) not treated like citizens. They are warehoused and paid lower wages.

I don't think the middle east is the utopia one might be expected to believe.



Last edited by grumpy old man on Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

grumpy old man

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But let's not dismiss Eastern Europe. It most closely mirrors this socialist utopia grumpyrom decries.

They nationalized industry. Everyone was considered (mostly) equal. Free education. Free health care. Unemployment was low. Everyone worked.

Let's compare that society to Canada.

Or, if not that society, another one where that Utopian model works (or at least worked). Remember we are talking about a society that has nationalised resources.

Is there such a place?


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

Deank

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Star Trek is the closest man will ever come.


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Why do we call them fingers if no one has ever seen them fing?

AGEsAces

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Deank wrote:Star Trek is the closest man will ever come.

Star Trek?

Really?

Even with the "utopiaesque" outline the "Federation" displayed...

there were Ferengi trading anything they can get their hands on
Every other alien trying to destroy them
Romulans built as a "government socialist state" who nobody trusted and everyone wanted out.

And even those within the Federation who wanted "more" and became black-market/bootlegger criminals fighting against the "perfect Federation.

I thought it hilarious where in one episode, they were explaining to someone from the "past" that money was no longer required...and then further in the series, they were desperate to get some "gold-pressed latinum" to make a payment for something.



WHAT IT DOES SHOW...is that there is no basis for a truly socialist/communist government society to work...because there will ALWAYS be someone who wants "more".

Cuba was presented as an example...yet Castro lives in a PALACE while his people are starving in the streets.
China? Have you SEEN where the government leaders live there?
Even the Eastern Europe examples...have the "leaders" living like kings.

Whoever presented the Saudi Arabia or other Middle East examples...needs to do more research.
Even in Dubai...which is being touted as a new Mecca...there are a select few who are "getting rich".
There have been statistics released that say the poverty rate in those countries is greater than 80%.

A friend of mine just went to Egypt...a country which boasts richness and culture.
Yet everywhere he went...he was inundated with CHILDREN begging for money. 5/6 year-olds coming up begging for money wearing rags and in many cases no shoes.
Not in school, out on the streets begging.

http://www.photage.ca

Deank

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yeah thats why I said was closest not ideal


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grumpy old man

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I have invested in gold-pressed latinum. The Ferengi are reluctant to sell it though. Farging bastiges.


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

Deank

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rub their ears


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eViL tRoLl

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Hydro prices have nothing to do with socialism. The basic tenet of socialism is the rift between workers and capitalists as owners of the means of production. However, most corporations are now accessible to public ownership, and ownership is very widely distributed through equity mutual funds. Hence,the gap between workers and capitalists has been closed in effect through mutual funds as the current operating socialist model.
Governement "socialism" has become obsolete a very long time ago, and social justice efforts to keep basic services such as food, housing, education, health care, water, transportation, and energy accessible and affordable for the population are a different subject.



Last edited by eViL tRoLl on Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

Triniman

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One could argue that Canada is, in fact, somewhat of a socialist model.

We have socialized medicine, and public money supporting the arts, sports and businesses, not to mention entitlements for individuals. This amounts to billions of dollars a year.

We have the illusion of having the free market. If we really had it, there would have been no government bailout of businesses in the US, for example and no subsidizes here.

As a Libertarian, I'd rather see less socialism than more but I don't think things will change any time soon.



Last edited by Triniman on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total


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“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through
our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that
democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'



― Isaac Asimov

AGEsAces

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I'm with Trini on the "less government is good".

There ARE applications for government involvement, provided it is monitored and controlled.

But the biggest problem I see with government (ANY government), is that they feel they HAVE to do "something".

In general...elected officials shouldn't have to really DO anything, other than pay the bills.

But they all believe that if they aren't "making new laws"...that they'll be perceived as useless and removed from office...which is a bunch of bunk.

What they SHOULD be doing (if they so desperately want to do something) is going through all the antiquated useless laws they've already made...and repeal them.

Specifically those which are an attempt at controlling the general public "for their own good"...
Things like anti-smoking, seatbelt requirements, cell phone while driving, drug use, etc.

http://www.photage.ca

grumpy old man

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Illusion of having the free market??? Really? Sigh.

Bailouts are the exception not the rule. Millions of businesses are operating today without government assistance. Indeed they are successful in spite of government.

The latest US bailouts might well have been demanded to avoid a more catastrophic recession. Not sure about that. Not defending the US government in any way.

But we are talking about Canada. Let's try to stay on tact.


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It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

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