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Is there such a thing as a good socialist model?

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grumpy old man


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Illusion of having the free market??? Really? Sigh.

Bailouts are the exception not the rule. Millions of businesses are operating today without government assistance. Indeed they are successful in spite of government.

The latest US bailouts might well have been demanded to avoid a more catastrophic recession. Not sure about that. Not defending the US government in any way.

But we are talking about Canada. Let's try to stay on tact.

eViL tRoLl

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AGEsAces wrote:What they SHOULD be doing (if they so desperately want to do something) is going through all the antiquated useless laws they've already made...and repeal them.

Specifically those which are an attempt at controlling the general public "for their own good"...
Things like anti-smoking, seatbelt requirements, cell phone while driving, drug use, etc.
Most of these are not antiquated at all but have come up in the last few years or decades. There is no attempt to control the public but an attempt to PROTECT the public from reckless indivduals after efforts of education were not sufficient to curb these behaviours. We need much more of this protection. In particular we have to get rid off the perceived right of procreation and curb the breeding of violent criminals and addicts before they pass those traits on to further generations.

Deank

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Canada has a somewhat decent socialist model or should I say had one. These last few years, much like the US canada is growing more and more socialist. As much more socialist countries in Europe are finding eventually you have to pay for all that socialism. And when that time comes, its very hard.


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AGEsAces

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oh bull...ET

they are attempts to CONTROL individuals because they don't have the guts to actually deal with people who cause a real problem...and because they know that the more people they CONTROL, the more money they can make through fines and prosecution.

And I know the laws I listed aren't old...that they've all been made recently...and that they are ALL useless!!!

LAWS WERE ALREADY IN PLACE!!! which addressed every one of them...but they were rarely enforced...and covered a broader spectrum of offenses.

And your last sentence is only partially correct.
There IS a "RIGHT OF PROCREATION"...and always should be...however...
The biggest problem is that the laws are making CRIMINALS HAVE RIGHTS!!!

What needs to be changed, is that if you commit a crime, you forfeit your RIGHTS...to procreate, to drink, to smoke, to have sex, to do anything but what you're told for the duration of your sentence.

But they even want criminals to have a right to VOTE...gee...who do you think they are going to elect? Probably people who will give them televisions and game systems!!!

But persecuting EVERYONE ELSE because a select few are stupid and break laws, by creating new laws that even more people will break does NOTHING but generate income for the government, and make the politicians feel "important" because they think they are "protecting everyone from themselves"

http://www.photage.ca

Triniman

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grumpy old man wrote:Illusion of having the free market??? Really? Sigh.

Bailouts are the exception not the rule. Millions of businesses are operating today without government assistance. Indeed they are successful in spite of government.

The latest US bailouts might well have been demanded to avoid a more catastrophic recession. Not sure about that. Not defending the US government in any way.

But we are talking about Canada. Let's try to stay on tact.

http://www.fcpp.org/publication.php/3067
"It’s worth noting that before the recent recession, the then newly elected Conservatives in Ottawa paid out $5.5 billion in corporate welfare to the usual suspects in their first full fiscal year in office (the April 1, 2006-March 31, 2007 budget year ). "

In certain business sectors, subsidizes seem to be the rule, not the exception, in Canada.


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grumpy old man

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Maybe. But every business making the "free market" an "illusion"? No.

So let's get out of the subsidy business. Which businesses are subsidies the rule in Canada? And how do we divorce ourselves from these subsidies?


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

JT Estoban

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Well, big Oil would be one of those mandatory subsidies...no?


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grumpy old man

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I don't know. I can't imagine that being the case though. If they want the oil they pay. Why would they be subsidized? And is that the rule?


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

Triniman

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"Just look at the two largest corporate welfare cases in Canada. Recently, it was reported that the government paid off $108-million for a failed loan guarantee for Bombardier's C-series planes. At the same time, Pratt and Whitney announced plans to lay off 1,000 employees. In a report titled, On the Dole, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation revealed Pratt and Whitney to be the largest recipient of corporate welfare cash from the federal government, having taken over $1.5-billion between 1982 and 2005. Bombardier placed second, soaking taxpayers for $745-million."
Why do these businesses require tax subsidizes?

The misery of corporate welfare

Adrian MacNair: Corporate welfare alive and well

"Foremost on the minds of taxpayers must be the recent bailouts to General Motors and Chrysler, costs which were recently revealed are unlikely to ever be recouped. The federal and provincial governments committed $15.3-billion to the auto sector between April and June of this year alone. Interfering in the free market forces like this seriously hampered competitors as well, the report proves."

“[The federal government] will take in around $32-billion on corporate taxes this year, and what they’ve effectively done is taken half the taxes paid by all other businesses in the country and sent it to GM and Chrysler,” Mr. Milke said.

Wealth redistribution. It’s not just for socialists anymore."
-- So says the National Post.


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“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through
our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that
democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'



― Isaac Asimov

grumpy old man

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Heh, Bombardier = buying Quebec votes... Think any government would have the nads to stop that gravy train?

Ahhh, the National Post. Wasn't that owned by????

Okay, so we've proven bailouts exist. We've not proven that government grants/subsidies were a way of life for the majority of businesses leading up to an illusion of a free market.


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

JT Estoban

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Canadian governments spent almost $3 billion
subsidizing the oil industry: http://www.torontosun.com/money/2010/12/27/16683561.html

I can't say "it's the rule"...however if they collect 3B annually, it's hard to disagree that it's the "defacto" rule imo.


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I think that it's safe to say that Canadians are selective socialists. Smile (kinda typical eh?)

grumpy old man

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JT Estoban wrote:Canadian governments spent almost $3 billion subsidizing the oil industry: http://www.torontosun.com/money/2010/12/27/16683561.html
I can't say "it's the rule"...however if they collect 3B annually, it's hard to disagree that it's the "defacto" rule imo.
Boggles the mind don't it? I can't imagine why any government believes it is necessary to subsidize this industry one cent!


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

grumpy old man

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Here is another fine example of why it (the Middle East) CAN work and how it must be an improvement on Canada: http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/weird/2011/01/18/16929651.html


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

Triniman

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grumpy old man wrote:We've not proven that government grants/subsidies were a way of life for the majority of businesses leading up to an illusion of a free market.

There's bound to be a ripple effect, eh?

One thing's for sure, the "free market' should be could be a lot more "freer" than it currently is.


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“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through
our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that
democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'



― Isaac Asimov

grumpy old man

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Ripple effect? No. I think it's pretty free.


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

umcrouc0

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We're very far away from a true 'free market' system. Not that I think that's necessarily a bad thing. If you open things up completely Canada can't compete in any industry other than selling natural resources and maybe produce if global supplies are low. We aren't inherently more efficient than anyone, and our costs are higher than most.

grumpy old man

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umcrouc0, you've touched on a couple of points: productivity and global competition.

Maybe we need a definition of what a free market is. And perhaps umcrouc0 will help us understand how productivity and global competition are being tied in.


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

eViL tRoLl

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Free market is a myth. There will always be a need for regulation to prevent price-fixing and monopolies, and to ensure safe work conditions and products. Is it really global "competition" if we allow cheap products to be sold that are not safe to use, and are so cheap because of child/slave labour, environmental destruction, and theft of intellectual property? I would hope not!

grumpy old man

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Wikipedia has a detailed discussion on free markets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

Given how every level of Canadian government dabbles in seemingly every aspect of business then perhaps we don't truly enjoy the real benefit of a free trade market.

I don't know if there is a model available to discuss where the government plays absolutely no part in a business transaction.

Perhaps triniman is right when he say's we enjoy the "illusion of a free market" in Canada.


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Yes, I really am that Grumpy...

It's their, they're and there; in Canada it's colour, cheque, rumour and zed...

umcrouc0

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If you're saying 'free market' as in globally, that would make for no tarrifs/duties for import/export of any type. If you really mean entierly free and open to any competition. As it is if you want to bring something in from another country, there are restrictions so at least across borders, it's not a free market.

Even with the current restrictions, if you take a product made in Canada and compare the costs with one made with lower labour costs (China for example), even with current import costs, it's still cheaper to buy from elsewhere, assuming you're using the same technology. To try and combat that to make sure all manufacturing doesn't just leave, companies in countries with more expensive labour look to process improvements (automation, etc) to improve productivity and reduce manufacturing costs. The amount of money required to actually reserach (possibly develop entirely) and implement these systems is beyond what a company can typically afford so they rely on government programs to help with the costs. In basically every Western country, that's how it's been for years. Since we're putting government money into helping develop local technologies, the local economy also can't really be considered 'free' because the government is strategically providing productivity incentives to some companies for productivity and new market opportunities. Within our local system that also creates inequalities between companies with some being more heavily supported than others, so I don't think it could be considered very 'free' in that case either. Then there are issues with putting together different support packages to ensure companies of a certain size don't leave a region, regional support programs funded by a combination of city/provincial, and regional federal (like western economic diversification) governments.

In the end you get a bunch of companies getting government support in some way, competing with other companies across the country with government support from their region, competing global with companies getting government support from their federal governments, and all within some system of trade restrictions to everyone can try and protect their own interests. Not a lot of real market freedom IMO. Then there are things like competition/monopoly laws to add further restrictions.

Triniman

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grumpy old man wrote:Perhaps triniman is right when he say's we enjoy the "illusion of a free market" in Canada.

Christallmighty, I almost fell out of my chair!


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“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through
our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that
democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'



― Isaac Asimov

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