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Canadians oppose Internet spy law

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1 Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:14 pm

grumpyrom

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http://www.torontosun.com/2011/08/25/canadians-oppose-internet-spy-law-poll

What aren't more people aware and angry about these changes? There is absolutely no friggin way government should have the authority to conduct this type of surveillence without a court order. Complete and utter BS, and the fact that they tried to sneak it in with the copyright bill imho proves they know this. Great way to fly it under the radar rather than have to defend it as a standalone bill.

2 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:46 pm

grumpy old man

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Where is the opposition? They should be safeguarding our privacy if the conservatives won't. toews is a total buffoon if he thinks this is appropriate legislation. Slippery slope.

Put the brakes on this now toews...


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3 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:55 pm

Hollywood

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I agree. Like Jesse Ventura always says, government will always use "safety" as an excuse to gain more power.


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4 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:59 am

Guest

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No no no....this is all about the children. Smile

5 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:52 am

grumpyrom

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For anyone who values their personal privacy this bill should have been the number one issue at election time regardless of which way they lean politically. I could never vote for any party that promised to introduce a law that would make it legal to wire tap all forms of communication in real time without a court order. Very slippery slope on the way to a "1984" type society. Speak with anyone who has lived in a state where these forms of spying on it's people were legal and they'll remind you where this ends up. I still remember my grandma stuffing pillows over the phones in case "they" were listening.



I guess private VPN services like the one's used in China will become the norm sooner than later. The Pirate Party has already announced they will be offering VPN services to Canada at $10/200GB, a small price to pay to protect your privacy imho. We get to join the likes of countries like China where a VPN is required to be able to surf the net with some expectation of privacy.

6 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:56 am

Stonekiller

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Laughably at the same time Canadians are completely ignorant as to how much of their personal information is already available online. Sites like Facebook, and the rapidly declining MySpace allow millions of people to view sometimes very explicit details of peoples lives. The police don't need to snoop in people email just go on Facebook and see what people are putting on there.

However having said that, really if you have nothing to hide, why would the police have to snoop in your email and internet traffic?

Though to be honest, I think the police should still be required to get a warrant, the process for getting said warrant however should be streamlined.

7 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:00 pm

grumpy old man

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Slippery slope stonekiller. I want the police to show cause, to an independant third party, why they should have unfettered access to my email or any other PRIVATE information.

We are not talking about public information, posted knowingly or not, posted in public forums and blogs and social sites.



Last edited by grumpy old man on Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total


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8 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:09 pm

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Stonekiller wrote:

.................




However having said that, really if you have nothing to hide, why would the police have to snoop in your email and internet traffic?

Though to be honest, I think the police should still be required to get a warrant, the process for getting said warrant however should be streamlined.



That's fascist talk there m'boy.



You are descending that slippery slope at break-neck speed with that ideology. Stop before it's too late. Wink

9 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:29 pm

Stonekiller

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I don't know about you but if you feel you need to protect your email and protect your privacy then using encryption should be something you do now, not because the police could have unfettered access to your email, but because anyone with some know how, and some social engineering can access anything they want. If you are a Shaw or an MTS customer, all I need is a bill with your account number and I can access all kinds of information online without even speaking to a person. I can reset all your passwords, order or delete services, it's amazing what these companies allow people to do online. And most people just toss that info in the trash. Hell I do it all the time, really should invest in a shredder.

However, having said that I still think that police should need a warrant to seize information from your ISP, some feel that there will be no oversight, or control. I believe however that if police believe that they have reason to gain access to stuff at the ISP level that they should be able to do so easily using a documented procedure that contains oversight, and rules on obtaining the information.

Though most Canadians will think that the police will be able to snoop through your email, and whatever with ease. I wonder though will anything gathered by the police without a warrant in these cases be admissible in court?

I am all for giving police the ability to do their jobs, however I also believe that there needs to be some form of control, or that the process is made public so that they understand how it works and what the police and investigators need to do to be able to request this access.

10 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:05 pm

grumpyrom

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Stonekiller, this is nothing like what you speak of. Social engineering has and will continue to be a real securtiy concern as is the information knowingly posted by individuals on social media sites. However the powers this bill would give the authorities go so far beyond that it's not even funny. It would require that ALL ISP's have the ability to give the authorities INSTANT access to what you are doing in REAL TIME. They would be able to see what you are doing keystroke for keystroke as you type it. Sending your emails encrypted would to nothing to protect your privacy in this case as they would have already read the email before you sent it. Only a strong VPN would be any sort of safegaurd in this scenerio.

If your going to give them that sort of access to your privacy without having to show just cause, then you may as well just give them the authority to do a warrantless physical search of your property at anytime or why not just allow them to install a live audio/video feed in every home while we're at it? They wont be far from this capability anyways once they have the authority to monitor your internet activity, ever use Skype?

As far as allowing them the ability to do their jobs, it already exists. They can apply for permission to do all these sorts of things, but first they have to show cause to a judge and receive a warrant to do so. You think it's just coincidence they want to remove that one little step?

Think about it for a moment, you don't need a secret police force to monitor the activities of your population once you have this sort of system in place. Any form of communication wether it be landline, cellphone, or internet will be able to be instantly tapped into with no need to show cause. That should be very, very, scary to anyone who values their freedom. The potential for abuse is absolutely mind boggling.

To add insult to injury, who do you think will be paying for the upgrades to the infrastructure the ISP's will be required to put in place by law to give the government these newfound abilities? It wont be the government. It will be every single customer who will be paying for it as you can bet the ISP's will pass the cost along.

The first thing that should come to mind when actually reading this bill is Orwell.

11 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:09 pm

grumpyrom

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Forgot to mention only 2 political parties have voiced any opposition to this bill, the NDP and the Pirate Party. The Liberals had their own version of this bill ready to be tabled before the Conservatives took power, and have publicly said they would support it before the Conservatives got their long awaited majority.

12 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:38 am

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If passed, I reckon that the Supreme Court would stop it pretty quickly.



This is way beyond the line imo. It is making us a fascist state.

13 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:28 pm

darkwind

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Stonekiller wrote:

Though to be honest, I think the police should still be required to get a warrant, the process for getting said warrant however should be streamlined.

I agree with this. I think part of why legislation like this crops up is that it is probably a lengthy, time-consuming and difficult process to get a warrant. I wish the article would have elaborated on that side of things as well - does it take days, weeks, months, to get warrants, etc. They don't tell us why this type of legislation is even seen as necessary by the gvmt.

And as someone said above also, would it be harder to get a conviction (and get it to stick on appeal) based on information obtained with no warrant.

14 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:22 am

Stonekiller

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Well according to this article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/09/21/technology-internet-surveillance.html

Not going to happen after all... Guess someone realized that it probably couldn't be held up in court. Still I think people should still be concerned with their privacy online. The information that is publicly available about ourselves is staggering for some. The police or anyone else for that matter can certainly use Google, and Facebook, and other open mediums to find information on people.

15 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:28 am

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Stonekiller wrote:

Not going to happen after all... Guess someone realized that it probably couldn't be held up in court.



JTF wrote:If passed, I reckon that the Supreme Court would stop it pretty quickly.



This is way beyond the line imo. It is making us a fascist state.



There's a deja vu echo in here I tell ya'......Smile

16 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:46 pm

AGEsAces

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what i find amusing is that people think ANYTHING they do online is "private".

You all DO realize that all internet traffic gets routed through major servers which record everything?

EVERY e-mail, EVERY photo, EVERY financial transaction.

that every little detail posted anywhere in the world is recorded and saved.

MOST of it is ignored...but if any federal or international case requires it...they can file a request for the information.

http://www.photage.ca

17 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:25 am

atara

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I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of information that's saved and KEPT. Yes, it passes through other systems, on which it can be scanned and spied on as it goes through. But keeping it? For posterity? Even one ISP would require petabytes of storage. In fact, that was one of the complaints about the original C-51 - it required massive amounts of storage for each ISP to preserve the transactions carried out on its servers just in case law enforcement wanted to look at it.

Yes, the end transactions (say, at a bank) are kept there. But ISPs do not record and store what passes through them, and that's what part of the "wiretapping" bill requires.

18 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:13 am

AGEsAces

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Well...yes and no atara.

I should say it's filtered...and compressed...and stored.

Filtered for "highlights".

I read an article not long ago (wish I could remember where), about the US filtering every e-mail ever sent. They scan them all for keywords or flags involving terrorism, drug dealing, organized crime, etc. Any e-mails which have elements they deem a "flag", is pulled...and further scanned.

It's all done in milliseconds by a huge computer.
But they also do ultra-compression of what they deem storable...so they don't need as much space as one might think.

http://www.photage.ca

19 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:39 am

Stonekiller

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AGEsAces wrote:Well...yes and no atara.

I should say it's filtered...and compressed...and stored.

Filtered for "highlights".

I read an article not long ago (wish I could remember where), about the US filtering every e-mail ever sent. They scan them all for keywords or flags involving terrorism, drug dealing, organized crime, etc. Any e-mails which have elements they deem a "flag", is pulled...and further scanned.

It's all done in milliseconds by a huge computer.
But they also do ultra-compression of what they deem storable...so they don't need as much space as one might think.

Did you put your tinfoil hat on?

ISP's don't save any data like that, there is no way MTS's datacenter would have to be HUGE. They do keep track of some stuff, but mostly just routing information and IP addresses of sites that are visited, and even then that is turfed after so many days.

As for email filtering, do you realize the infrastructure that would be needed to catch and scan every email that is sent in the United States? It's just not possible, and even if it were possible, the amount of data that would have to be sifted, and sorted would be immense. Sorry but I highly doubt it is happening.

I could however see the US government tracking specific international routing, that would be a bit more feasible, but even then the data moving across those connections would be vast.

20 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:31 am

AGEsAces

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no tin-foil hat...

it's a matter of record, and has come up in many court cases (mostly driven by the ACLU).

About a year ago, it was announced they were monitoring IM Messaging as well.

There's plenty of articles out there...from the extreme "tin-hats", to the communist "who-cares"...but it does exist.

Here's a little blurb from one article I read:
One
person with an insider’s view is Thomas Drake, a former top official at
the National Security Agency from 2001 through 2008. Disturbed by what
he describes as "malfeasance, fraud and illegalities" at the United
States' largest spy agency, he blew the whistle and was later prosecuted
by both the Bush and Obama administrations.

Drake called out the government in an August 26 Washington Post opinion piece entitled, "Why are we subverting the Constitution in the name of security?"


"Shortly
after Sept. 11, I heard more than rumblings about secret electronic
eavesdropping and data mining against Americans ... Before the war on
terrorism, our country recognised the importance of free speech and
privacy. If we sacrifice these basic liberties, according to the false
dichotomy that such is required for security, then we transform
ourselves from an oasis of freedom into a police state," Drake wrote.


The article can be found here:
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/08/2011830103018962738.html

I recently took a course on HTML5...which actually has a component in it to make it easier for governments to monitor web traffic for sites using it.

And I'm not saying we should be all paranoid about it.
For generations...everything put in print (and e-mail, web, etc. counts as print) has been passed on as "proof" of something, and tracked.
Just look at the often mis-quoted "he who would give up liberty in the name of safety deserves neither".
How many of you reading this would say "oh yeah, the Ben Franklin" quote?
And yet...HE NEVER SAID IT!!!
It was printed in his newspaper/journal...but it wasn't from him...yet it continues to be a basis for many an argument...especially in recent times.

http://www.photage.ca

21 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:14 pm

atara

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Yes - absolutely, there is egregious privacy violations taking place under the guise of the Patriot Act in which targeted people's emails, phone calls, IMs, and all other communications are being monitored.

But it's a far jump from that to "Everyone's email is always being scanned and saved if you use keywords xyz." The infrastructure for that just simply is not there.

22 Re: Canadians oppose Internet spy law on Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:56 am

Stonekiller

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That and the Patriot act doesn't apply to Canadians. I seldom send email to anyone, let alone down in the states. Not too concerned about american policy.

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